Energy Generation Idea - Please Falsify

According to the links below, it is possible to extract energy from a spinning cylinder using a “twisted wave” (longitudinally spinning) beams of oscillating energy, e.g. laser, sound, provided you can satisfy the “challenging condition” the frequency of the twisted wave beam be lower than the rotation rate of the cylinder. It appears that what happens is the angular momentum of the cylinder is transferred to impinging outgoing twisted wave

Extracting Energy from Black Holes
Amplification of Twisted Sound Waves

According to Nassim, protons spin at lightspeed. I propose a device that will transfer some of the lightspeed spin of protons in a proton beam to a twisted wave infra-red laser.


Apparatus to Extract energy from Proton spin using negative energy


  • Proton beam, spinning around its axis, 0.5mm in diameter.
  • “Twisted Wave” Laser Beam, infrared,1mm wavelength, intersecting the proton beam at an angle.
    ( Both beams collimated and tuned to couple resonantly)
  • A solar cell positioned to receive the laser beam reflected off the proton beam, connected to an electric load of some sort.
    According to the experiment, the twisted wave laser beam should come off the proton beam with increased amplitude (power) that the photo cell can collect and convert to electric current for storage/use.

Without tuning the beams, the apparatus would only drain the energy that went into generating the twist in the twisted wave laser beam, I would think (and so perhaps the width of the beams is irrelevant). However if that beam were tuned to couple resonantly with the protons in the proton beam and/or vice versa, say by

(a) tuning the twisted wave beam to a lower harmonic (integer divisor) of the proton spin, one might be able to couple the twisted wave to the spin of the protons, allowing the energy of the protons to be bled off by the twisted wave; and/or

(b) tuning the proton beam like a laser so the protons are marching in lockstep AND have their axis of spin aligned longitudinally with the axis of the proton beam;

then the increased amplitude of the twisted wave infra-red laser beam could then be captured by a photoelectric cell and stored/used as desired.

At this point my brain begins to wobble dangerously. Alas I can’t let the idea alone. I’m hoping that someone with a better grasp might lend a steadying hand.

I welcome your feedback.


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More simply:

Bounce a twisted wave laser beam off a LINAC generated collimated (like a laser) proton beam at about 45 degrees. Collect the output laser beam with a photoelectric cell.

> Inspired by Penrose’s idea, Yakov Zel’dovich predicted in 1971 that quantum fluctuations and classical electromagnetic waves reflected from a rotating absorbing cylinder would gain energy and be amplified. Though the concept is key to understanding that black holes may amplify quantum fluctuations, it could not be verified experimentally since the cylinder rotation rate must be larger than the incoming wave frequency, making it very challenging when using electromagnetic waves.

(If my understanding of the links above is correct:)
The laser beam will have it’s amplitude increased after it bounces off the proton beam. That increase will be torque energy drained from the spinning protons in the proton beam. (Those protons should have their angular momentum slightly reduced from their normal lightspeed rotation.)

That energy can be harvested by a photoelectric cell positioned to capture the output laser beam and convert it into useful electric current.

The proton beam need not be twisted. The protons of the collimated proton beam will be (must be) aligned along their axes and all pointing in the direction of the beam. Their spin provides the rotation supplied by the rotating metal cylinder in the model illustrated at the first link.

This arrangement should satisfy “the challenging condition.” The wavelength of any visible light laser will be much larger than the wavelength of the proton beam, which is equal to the charge radius of the protons.

If this device is in fact feasible, it would have many advantages. The arrangement can be miniaturized to fit onto an integrated circuit board, providing energy wirelessly from a pocket size pollution-free package that supplies electric current. It would amount to a battery that charges itself.

Please note that this is no more a “free energy device” than is a hydroelectric power dam. Both drain energy from natural flows. In this case, the flow is the spin-energy of ubiquitous protons (hydrogen ions), rather than mountain streams.

Can this be true? As you can see my brain is still wobbling. I will welcome steadying hands.

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The scientist who twisted 2, 1-atom thick graphene sheets 1.1 ° radially resulting in superconductivity one order of magnitude larger, said “the first time I see it I ignore it but as it reappears I start to pay attention.”

Thank you for the response.

I’m afraid I don’t follow you.

Please clarify, and maybe offer a link?

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For newcomers: Darryl posted a link to an announcement that scientists have discovered that carbon 60 (graphene - flat) can be made into a layered mesh that is both insulating and superconducting at the relatively high temperature of 100 degrees Kelvin (-280F), which IMO will have big implications for energy production. The key is that the meshes have to be angled at 1.1 degrees.

Gotta mull this over.

Wow! Whatta link!

Many thanks.

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Am so glad to have someone to share the excitement with.

So what connection do you see with my energy generation idea?

Hahahaha! Inviting me to wear my muddy boots from the pig barn all over the pristine marble floors of your research hall. I think that critiquing ideas in development is a great way to quench the inspiration flame.

That said, for me … a systems illustration is worth 2,000 words and a week of waving my hands in the air. Arrange the components in relation to each other and the system as a whole. Back up your drafts (snap pictures). You should be able to translate your comprehension insights into 1-3 scaled boxes that hopefully convey your invention into a finger-snapping aha!

I agree, diagrams please.

Cool, but I wonder what happens to the proton?

In the black hole case extracting energy via the Penrose process causes the black hole to rotate more slowly and get larger. Until eventually it stops rotating and the energy transfer physics no longer works.

The proton is very stable (estimated life time about the square of the age of the universe). Would it be willing to change? Willing to slow down? Or would it go straight to stop, and release a lot of energy very suddenly?

Any ideas?

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That is a really great question.

My guess is that the energy taken from the proton will be replaced via it’s internal wormhole connection to the cosmic spin, and that thus the energy extracted is simply replaced by/drawn from the total cosmic mass. It should amount to a net transfer of energy from all protons in the cosmos to the ones supplying the electricity.

I regret I am unable to supply diagrams and such any time soon for health reasons. I can just about think and type most days.

If you go to Amplification of Twisted Sound Waves, at one minute into the video they show a metal cylinder and a blue twisted sound wave. The device I propose would replace the metal cylinder with a collimated (lasered) proton beam, and the twisted sound wave would be replaced with a twisted wave laser tuned to resonate with proton spin.

The twisted wave laser would hit the proton beam and it’s amplitude would increase in the same way twisted sound waves get amplified. The laser beam goes then to a photoelectric cell which converts the amplified laser to electric current, which then recharges the device’s power source while the surplus electricity generated by twisted-wave amplification gets stored or used.

Still can’t think why it wouldn’t work. My brain is still wobbling dangerously. A steadying hand anyone?

Thank you for your interest.

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@Darryl
I’m sorry to upset you. I am sincerely interested in what connection you might see. That is a very significant discovery. Even if there is no particular connection with my post, it is worthy of it’s own thread IMO.

Without tone of voice and body language, it’s way too easy to misunderstand. My apologies for not replying in a more gentle voice. Let me read your note again and give me a second chance. :cowboy_hat_face:

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@Vortical OK I see that picture.
But it seems to me that instead of one proton having a mass a tiny bit less that rest mass; we now have a ‘zillion’ protons each with a rest mass that is ‘zillionth of a tiny bit’ too small. Which leaves the same question. One answer might be the zillion would have to be in linear motion and the process would slow them down. Decreasing the entropy of the universe.

Don’t get me wrong, in not way do I think I’m falsifying the idea. But perhaps the energy would have to come from somewhere other than other protons. Random idea: perhaps from accelerated vacuum particles, which without changing the mechanism would perhaps make your idea look like an energy pump. The proton as a vacuum energy pump…

Just get it working and I’ll stop wondering how :wink:

I believe the normal progression is 1) hypothesis, 2) testing 3) results and 4) repeat. But before testing your hypothesis, how much energy can be realized bouncing the laser off the proton beam? Theoretical upper limit of the efficiency of a photoelectric cell is 86.8% for a stack of an infinite number of cells. In actuality, solar panel efficiency is generally around 15-20%, though solar cell efficiency can reach 42% in some cases. Will the proton beam boost the laser enough to overcome the inefficiency of the photoelectric cell? I don’t know. However, I did read an article last week that said Pioneer 1 & 2 measured extremely high speed protons whose speeds were accelerated by the sun’s bow shock moving through ‘inner’-galactic space. That to me, is affirmation of your concept, however I suspect the inefficiencies of photoelectric cells defeats any possible wattage amplification. How about the energized laser beam spinning a mini radiometer light mill, that has quantum magnets instead of metal vanes? I don’t think there is such a radiometer but I’m throwing ideas at the vacuum and seeing what sticks… :magnet:

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@Darryl

but I’m throwing ideas at the vacuum and seeing what sticks

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

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I don’t follow you about the zillion protons with a rest mass a tiny bit too small. Clarify?

The source of the energy of the cosmos in the UFT appears to be torque (twisting force) between the Planck scale and the cosmic scale. The Planck scale is highly energetic, very fast, very small. The cosmic scale is large, massive, and slow. Where that torque comes from I don’t really get yet, but it is torque that energizes objects in the cosmos, if I get Haramein right.

Recall that the Planck oscillator is not a “thing” but a motion. In the equations it is expressed as a quantity of angular momentum, of torque, of twist.

You’ve inspired a eat of the pants speculation: I guess you might say that the cosmic torque results from the “delay” [impedence, resistance, stickiness??] encountered by the energy of the Planck spin scaling up/outward/expanding to the proton level, then the cosmic level, and so on.

Scale matters. Recall that volume increases as the cube of linear dimension. That forms a kind of mathematical hump over which the Planck torque must climb as objects increase in scale if I guess right.

Imagine: The teeny Planck Oscillators are always spinning at lightspeed. When they spin around a common center with enough other Plancks (10^60 is it?) they form a proton, which also spins around its center (absolute spin) at lightspeed. Larger objects can’t do lightspeed -see below*.

Protons have mass and so while spinning they also orbit larger masses, so you get dust and planets swirling around suns swirling around Galaxies.

The slooow spin of the galaxy must always be lagging behind the net spin of the Planck oscillators within its protons, and that creates a “twist”, a torque between the smallest scale and the larger scales. That difference in spin between smallest and largest scales is the tension in the spring which unwinds through time energizing the motion of masses in the cosmos, perhaps.

And that should be the source of the energy captured by this energy generation idea.

*Objects more massive than protons can’t spin/move at lightspeed because of relativistic mass dilation - mass increases with velocity until it mass becomes infinite - too large to accelerate further with finite fuel - as it runs up against the lightspeed speed limit, and that difference generates the torque energy that moves everything in between. -??

Does that make sense?

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Arg, that was a while ago. I suspect my thinking was that mass and energy are the same thing. Removing energy from a proton would decrease its mass, but (we think) we see a proton with constant mass. I suppose a ‘too small to measure’ (in units of mass) amount of energy could be leaking out of the back door via a wormhole, but if all the protons in the universe were doing it that might be a measurable decrease in the mass of the universe.

I blame the monkeys. They gave us their limited sensory system that can’t tell mass from energy. In my imagination mass is rotational kinetic energy. What we call mass is due to the curving of spacetime, and that curving of spacetime is due to the rotation of spacetime. The short version of General Relativity is “mass tells spacetime how to curve, and spacetime tell mass how to move”. The usual assumption is ‘move’ is linear, I’d say it is rotational. Spin is the energy of mass. New physics becomes the switch from linear to spherical and rotational. The PSU as an abstract unit is brilliant.

Scale matters. Recall that volume increases as the cube of linear dimension . That forms a kind of mathematical hump over which the Planck torque must climb as objects increase in scale if I guess right.

Absolutely, but that hump depends on mass and inertia. Mass is only proportional to radius cubed for atomic matter. At the scale of the proton and smaller mass is inversely proportional to radius, and for a black hole mass is proportional to radius. Each of these is a different configurations of accelerated vacuum. I would suggest this is the basis of the different scales in the universe.

My gut is that we should be thinking about density not mass/energy, though I don’t have a clear way to say it. My best shot is: more dense things (protons, black holes) rotate fast, less dense things rotate slowly (planets, galaxies). Anybody know an exception?

The speed limit is of course interesting. The infinite mass thing may be an artifact of continuous math. In a discrete universe the singularity is the difference between something made of components and one component. Recall that for particles mass is the inverse of radius, as they get more energy they get smaller. At some point they get so much energy that their structure ceases to be, and they become a single unit of their components. To say the component is infinite, is to miss the discrete nature (and that the discrete component exists). No wonder physicists don’t think in terms of PSUs.

Thank you for inspiring me to rant :blush: I enjoy your ideas. As somebody or other said ‘the truth is out there’.

Nassim on Weds, always inspiring.

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